How Legal Can Impact Company Growth

Welcome to The Did You Know Podcast by Varisource, where we interview founders, executives and experts at amazing technology companies that can help your business save a lot of time, money and grow faster. Especially bring awareness to smarter, better, faster solutions that can transform your business and give you a competitive advantage----https://www.varisource.com

Transcript

Welcome to the did you know podcast by Varisource, where we interview founders and executives at amazing technology companies that can help your business save time and money and grow, especially bringing awareness to smarter, better, faster solutions that can transform your business. 

1.6s Hello everyone, this is Victor with Varisource. Welcome to another episode of the Did you know Podcast. And today we have a very unique guest. Because he's not part of procurement, he's not part of the spend. He's not part of any solutions software solution. But he's actually a legal counsel at a company. He's a mentor, he's a friend. And super excited to have Chris Cantor on the the show with us. Chris is a legal counsel at GSI. Welcome to the show, Chris. Hi. 

U1

Thanks, Victor, for having me and really appreciate it. Yeah, I do consider you a good friend and a wonderful former colleague and just very, very happy to have the opportunity to participate in this great podcast. 

U2

Yeah. And no. Love our conversations. Obviously you've been in legal for a long time, and I think what we love doing is giving a platform to procurement to a lot of people that do amazing job at companies, but maybe not oftentimes have the platform to talk about it. A lot of times, you know, even in procurement, right, people think they just save money. They just do X, Y, and Z. But really there's a huge impact that they bring to the business. And I think actually on the legal side as well, everybody somewhat knows what legal, you know, does. But but obviously to me the theme of this, you know, session is how can legal become your companies competitive advantage. So I think it's it's a cool session. But why don't you give the audience a little bit about, you know, your background and how did you get into this legal 

U1

area? Well, no thank you. And I and I will circle back on your comments about legal being an integral part of a successful business. I think one of the things I always think about my role within a company as an in-house attorney is how to best bring value to the company, both in terms of, you know, generating revenue or help accelerate generating revenue within a company, but also helping to be kind of that friend to the company who makes sure that they don't do anything to decelerate revenue, which means preventing getting into bad deals, preventing getting unfair legal or regulatory clauses or situations that could really hurt the company. But I also look at legal being a proactive member of a team of people who are really trying to ensure the success of the company, and I'm sure we'll get into a lot of those details in our conversation. But I think that's why I'm excited to be part of this conversation, to put legal on the map. As somebody important within any 1.3s technology, technological organization that's really trying to be innovative and kind of at the forefront of things. As 

U2

far as you want to be, the place you want to be the face of all legal, legal departments and legal people everywhere. Absolutely, 

U1

absolutely. Put my name on the 

U2

poster. Great. 

U1

But but yeah, but but in all seriousness, I mean, my background started with regulatory, a very, very 1.1s specialized US regulatory background dealing with a lot of internet or emerging internet VoIP, communications, networking issues. Then I went in-house at a international telecom aggregator, which is where we met Victor. Um, and I really in that in that role, I transitioned from being kind of an advisor, counsel outside the company to somebody really working within the company to help enable sales do their job, to be able to do their job, to help enable the board members complete their mission with the company. So I really got to see the inner workings of how how a company operates, how different departments interact with each other and really got to play what I considered a central role in. Helping bring the America's team and the company as a whole, from a startup to post startup business that was acquired several times when I was there. After that, I worked for a global international legal software company. You can look up my LinkedIn to figure out who that was, and then after that, I've transitioned more to a hybrid role right now where I'm at JSC and engineering and regulatory consulting firm. So I do both advising internally on commercial contract matters and also helping companies comply with regulatory and legal compliance obligations related to telecom. So a very weighty resume so far. 

U2

So, you know, I always love talking to people who kind of seen different angles. You've seen large enterprise, you've seen different industries. You've seen, you know, different size of organization. Again, from startups to enterprise to mid-market and just coming from different angles. What would you say is kind of the top three areas that legal can bring the biggest impact, and what kind of dissect it a little more later on, but maybe just kind of to kick things off based on what you've seen, all these different companies, what would you say in general? What are the top three areas? Oh, 

U1

absolutely. And I'm happy to talk about it. I mean, part of this I think, is based on what, what I, what I enjoy or what any attorney enjoys doing within an organization. I've always gravitate or I've always gravitated towards commercial contracts, doing deals, supporting sales. And that's where I was saying earlier that I view legal as someone to help successfully and pragmatically negotiate contracts, get sales agreements done, make sure that you know, the agreements that you are signing up for are fair, that they're done in a equitable manner to both parties. But also, I've learned through trial and error, you don't want to be the 1.4s one to say that the person who's slowing down things. I think one of the keys is to be as pragmatic as possible. 1s You know, you're not you shouldn't accept anything that puts a company at risk. But I have been in deals where you end up. Haggling over stuff that, you know, lawyers like to dance on the head of a legal pin. But at some point, really, it's just being pragmatic and making sure that the deals are signing are benefit to both parties, and that you're really focusing on kind of the key features there. So the first point would be commercial contract success. Obviously I'm a regulatory lawyer, so I'm somewhat biased towards that. So I think making sure you're in compliance with all the necessary regulatory laws within the country are operating or wherever you're providing services and having a robust internal compliance program that is going to ensure that success. That's something that I see a lot of people 1.1s want to say, don't do their due diligence on. And then, you know, when it comes time to, say, selling the company, when it comes time to, 1.2s you know, in a regulator comes you really, really have to make sure that that stuff is those stuff is in line. Um, and then finally, I think just internal corporate organization, making sure all your documents are where they should be, making sure all you can find, all your legal documents. That includes contracts, that includes licenses, that includes insurance, just making sure that's all centralized so you can easily access it. And you're not scratching your head when you need to find it. Yeah, I love that. Um, so what are some I usually like to start early on with talking about some of the challenges in general in your specific area of expertise, or obviously at this time we're talking about legal, but what do you think are some of the challenges generally that legal team faces today? Right. Again? I think there's always like obviously, you know, things ten years ago, maybe different than now, obviously Covid, right before Covid and after Covid, the world has changed. Um, companies are always changing the world always changing, compliance always changing. So what do you think in 2023? Um, 

U2

what are some of the challenges that legal team faces today? 

U1

I mean, I think it's a good question because I think there's a lot of opportunity out there on the legal front to face a lot of the challenges that businesses are facing. I mean, you have a lot of different tools at your disposal. You have contract management software. There's some really cool 1.2s AI driven software out there. Um, you know, there's a lot of services that even 5 or 10 years ago you can subscribe to in terms of contract review, in terms of licensing. And I and I love all those because it makes my my job easier. It kind of takes a lot of the administrative work out of it and lets me focus or any legal counsel focus on what they enjoy doing. For me, it's interacting with people on the company. For some people it might be, you know, researching 1.4s archaic legal facts. Um, so I do think a lot of the technology that's out there really is a benefit and advantage to legal counsel. And I'm definitely not one of these people who is scared of it or think it's going to ruin the profession. If anything, I think it's going to improve it. I think as far as the challenge go is just knowing, knowing how to use it, knowing what to use, knowing what to seek out, trying to track all of it. Um, you know, like I've explored different contract management software and all of them will tell you they have all these wonderful features and, you know, and a lot of them do, but there's just almost so many options out there that trying to narrow down what you want or what you need can be a little intimidating. 1.6s

U2

Yeah. I 1.2s think, you know, from a sales person perspective, I think the sales people listening to this call, I'm sure they all want to ask this question is, why does it take so long, Chris? You know, and again, sometimes it's just, you know, they don't talk to they don't fully understand what the other person actually does in the process. And again, you're dealing with all the you're managing all the sales people in the company. And but again that's what I love asking, you know, experts like you of give your side of the story right now. This is a platform to say okay, why does it take so long and should it takes so long and and because you're trying to protect the company at the same time, not be the, like you said, roadblock to getting a deal done or whatever. But if if you had 10,000 salespeople asking you this, what would you say? 

U1

I mean, 1.8s I ask myself that same question. So I, I do sympathize and empathize with every sales person out there who's trying to get a deal done. Um, 1.1s what I would say, though, in all honesty, is that. You know, I understand that the sales process from the sales person's perspective is done once the customer says they want to buy the product, 1.5s but understand also that the legal component is a necessary part of the process. So there is a lot of work negotiating some of the and this is not a legal term or parts of a contract. So you know, you have your indemnities, you have your termination provisions, you have your billing provisions. Um, a lot of those are very, very impactful of a deal. So a lot of the work that the attorneys are doing is making sure those are in line with not only the selling parties company values, but the company values of the person buying the product. And it really is to lawyers trying to iron out a lot of the mechanics of how the deal is going to operate. Presumably it's two parties who want to do business together, so that's always a good a good thing in the end. But you do have two parties who are coming together with, you know, they've been through the sales process. So they have these very rose tinted glasses on it. So I think part of the legal process is making sure that both parties come to an understanding of how the services are actually going to work. 1.1s You know, what the terms of the agreement are, and that takes time. It really does take time for the parties to discuss all the nitty gritty over it. And I know from a sales side, a lot of that might a lot of the provisions that get brought up might not make a lot of sense, but a lot of times they do, especially on the back end, like how, how, how often you can, uh, you know, or when you can terminate, 1s you know, when revenue is going to come in, when, when the company can book the revenue. That stuff's very, very important in the long run. So that's generally what takes time. 

U2

Yeah, I, 1.4s I think a lot of it to me like I'm a big believer obviously in communication. Um, you know, I think typically salespeople I guess, tend to want to communicate whether whether the other person likes it or not. But I look at procurement, too, in a way that really in any department, I feel like you're selling to somebody, if you're a salesperson, you're selling, you know, internally to your management, you're selling to the customer, of course, but even procurement, like you need to sell internally. Hey, why why you should help, you know, including these projects or these things. And I think the people that I've seen do really well and cooperate really well between procurement and the stakeholder are even people that used to be salespeople. I've seen salespeople turn into procurement and actually do a good job because they are used to being communicative, right? They're used to talking through things. And I think I think that's one of the things I, I see from you is like you from a legal perspective, you're also you like to communicate, you like to understand the business. You like to understand why the salespeople is pushing for certain things versus just from a only a legal point of view. Would you would that be a recommendation from you to other legal folks, or maybe starting early in their careers? Or would you say that's a key, maybe differentiator in kind of being a successful, maybe legal counsel or not? 

U1

I know it's 100% imperative that you understand the details and the rationale and really the why of any deal when you're negotiating it. I've certainly been in many, many negotiations where, you know, you go into it with certain expectations of, here's the product, here's what we're selling, here's the software solution we're proposing, or from the procurement side, here's the services we think we're buying from this company. And then really what your job is an attorney to do is to dig, kind of dig into it and figure out what exactly, 1s you know, the concerns are, what exactly you're trying to accomplish with the agreement that you're crafting. And, yeah, a lot of it is sales. I mean, a lot of it is, you know, the legal person who goes into a contract negotiation really has to sell their position. It's not I've 1.1s almost never been in a contract negotiation where I've had to cite case law, where I've had to do research, where, you know, a lot of the. Law school type stuff comes into play. A lot of it is just advocating for why, you know, this warranty is going to address the concerns of both your company and their company. Why it's equitable between the parties. Same thing with a lot of the terms in the contract where there is a big sales component to it. 1.1s And it's funny, the book end of it. I'm working with a big, big, big software provider right now on a contract that we're doing, and the procurement person is an attorney 1.3s or attorney, I should say. So it's kind of nice, like having a conversation with someone who understands the legal issues. So it goes both ways. 1.4s But I do think at the end of the day, there's an advocacy component to everything. 

U2

Yeah. No, I that's that's awesome that they have you know people in different different been in different roles have come with a different perspective. But you obviously a lot of your expertise are around compliance and regulatory. And to me, not every industry, not every, you know, company deal with compliance depending on the product and service and areas you're in. But can you kind of give maybe some insights into how should maybe in general, most companies should look at compliance. Even Soc2 is a compliance, right? To some degree for software companies or certain things. But a lot of companies starting out, they also don't understand the importance of compliance. Or maybe they don't have to deal with it. Right. And so maybe give some tips or insights on kind of how do you approach compliance, what you know, how is it like when is it not too much. Right. Also when you put too much in compliance then you slow things down. Then you're just kind of right. So. So what do you 

U1

think? No, I definitely agree. And it's it's a very, very good question because I think there are different levels to compliance. And you're right, not every industry is going to be in a highly regulated, you know, marketplace. Certainly I deal with telecommunications and there's whole us and then there's international laws and licensing requirements and ongoing report filings. So I deal in a very heavily regulated industry, but I have worked in other other for other companies that are, I guess, less regulated, if you will, and there's still a lot of compliance obligations, especially, you know, you talk about data privacy. So any software or any any really digital platform that's going to be collecting customer information is going to have some compliance obligations with either the GDPR or a host of US or international privacy regulations that are coming online. There's always corporate corporate compliance obligations at some level that you have to deal with. So you know, and then there's insurance. There's so compliance is kind of ubiquitous. Um, but that being said, you know, it is everywhere. Um, one of the things that I would just stress is you do have to kind of engage in a proactive risk assessment. 1.1s Now, you know, I'm certainly an attorney, so I'm going to advocate for 110% compliance with everything. Um, but you know, there are bigger there are bigger. If you're in an industry that's highly regulated, I would definitely focus on those, you know, regulatory obligations. Data privacy and data security are like top of the list for items to comply with. I would not skimp on that at all. I would take those very, very seriously. Um, so it really, really I think it's industry dependent. Um, but one of the things I will say is to focus on it because as I was alluding to a little earlier, one of the areas that I see compliance manifesting a lot is when a company gets sold or bought by another company. I've been involved in that many times, and a lot of what the purchasing company will look at is, you know, how compliant the the company they're buying is with, you know, their, their compliance obligations. And that can make a huge difference in the sale price. Um, sometimes, you know, the sale price will drop by, you know, a percentage or two if there's, you know, non-compliance or bad compliance. Um, and then, you know, there's also a cost of getting into compliance. I've been in, in situations where the purchasing company wouldn't buy by the company until they got all their licenses updated, or they got their 1.1s fee payments, you know, sorted out. So a lot of the compliance obligations that might seem simple now become quite complicated. Uh, you know, later down the road. So it it is definitely something to take seriously overall. 

U2

Yeah. For founders. You said the magic word there, man. If you're trying to sell the company or, you know, you don't want that. I mean, it's another leverage point potentially on the purchasing company to use that as saying, hey, you know, yeah, you're not compliant or those things. So makes up makes a lot of sense. So we definitely save the best questions for for last. We got a couple a couple really good ones here. So um, you talked about there's a lot of new legal technology. Again there's AI but you know but just overall legal technology to help, you know, legal do a lot of things if you have to name like top few features that you as a, you know, legal counsel would love to see. I think those be great for those companies out there that are building this legal technology to know, hey, what feature does it really matter? Because people can build a lot of things, but a lot of times legal is like, yeah, don't need half of it, right? So like if you have to pick 2 or 3, what would you say are the main features where you'd be like, if that could happen, that would be 

U1

awesome. Okay. So I'm going to turn your question on the head and I'm going to give you my honest, honest opinion 

U2

here. There we go. There we go. I 

U1

just want from my standpoint, I just want simple 1.3s document management and maybe simple redlining, but really simple document management features. That's what I'm searching for in terms of a solution. 2.5s You know, I can upload a document I can track, you know, when I got it, when I have to get it back to opposing counsel. And if I don't get it back in time, it needs to tell me that I need to get on it. I've certainly been in, you know, situations where I have ten contracts sitting out there and, you know, amid no negotiations and all the other stuff, you know, you sit on a document for two weeks and then, oh, I got to get turn it around really quick. And again, that's off the record. Yeah. But you know I look at the simplicity of it. 2.2s You know, one of the big buzzwords in the in the contract management software solution space was a mouthful is, you know, the AI and a lot of the predictive intelligence and a lot of that's great. Like I honestly and we can get into it in a little bit, but I think the AI stuff is pretty mind blowing and pretty great. But I do know from a practical standpoint in, in, in house, in legal departments, it might help you sell the software, but actually implementing it becomes very complicated. Um, you know, I've been on the in the process of onboarding some of that legal software, and it's a process like that. That's that's the one thing that people have to realize is, is importing all the data, getting the contracts aligned, getting all the information into the system, into the AI system. There's an ongoing challenge to it. Um, and some of it's cool. But I'm also, you know, at the end of the day, you're going to sit down with opposing counsel and hash out terms in an agreement. So I think that, to me is what I focus on is how do I get my day to day job done and that a lot of that is just tracking and figuring out where things are and what the status is. 1s

U2

Yeah, that's a great segue into kind of our last two question. I mean, one is, you know, talking about how AI is and maybe will impact the legal sector, right? It's I mean, obviously when you use AI to write emails, a not a big deal, you know, it could be good, it could be bad. But it's like, yeah, that's okay. Tell to write your legal contracts for your company. It becomes a little bit more serious, right. Or a more risky of should I trust my AI to just write my contract? So how do you kind of see it? Because obviously developers and even movies, you know, like Hollywood studios, there's a strike go on because of meaning. There is now writers meaning anything that's written content could replace. Obviously they don't want to say replaced. They want to say compliment, right? But at the same time, it's a fine line. It just interesting to see your point of view of maybe where I can help or hurt the legal industry. Guess. Yeah, 

U1

it's I mean, I think we're all wrestling with it. And it's an interesting question. Um, I don't think fundamentally AI is going to replace lawyers 1.5s and I don't I don't really have a central tent pole for that, except that a lot of what an attorney, what I do all day again goes back to communication and interacting with people and, you know, really 1.2s trying, you know, being being a central repository for interactions within a company. And I don't think I. 1.1s We should or will get to that point. 2.1s You know? Yeah. Here's the deal. Yeah. You can have. You can have the I write contracts. Um, and but I don't think you will have the how do I say situational knowledge for those contracts for there to be a deep relevance there. I do think there are use cases for it. You know, certainly, you know, one can talk about different boilerplate contracts and, you know, assembling the data. Um, there's certainly, you know, I know people are deploying it right now and for contracts that you don't really care about, whether those exist or not, I don't know, but there might be a case for some. I in those instances, 1.2s I've actually, you know, started to explore, you know, using AI for certain 1.3s projects. And one of the things I can say that it does very well is it's a good place to get started with things. Um, I don't think it's I would never rely on it for a finalized or finished product. Like I would highly, highly, highly discourage and advise against going into AI and saying, I want a, you know, 30 page master services agreement for my services and then just printing it out and using it. You know, I've, I've played around with trying to generate contracts through ChatGPT and certain other AI 1.2s functionality, and it's very good at creating almost what I would call a skeleton for a contract. So you could put in I want a privacy policy. I've done this and it will come back with a very generic, very barebones privacy policy. I would never put that privacy policy on a website, but I do think there's a lot of advantage there in the fact that you can take that outline that the AI generates and then put in whatever key terms you want, remove anything you don't want to, obviously. But you can use that to tailor it to the business needs. And again, this is coming from someone who has done a gazillion privacy policies. So I know what is supposed to be in and out of a privacy policy. 1s But it's a good but for me, it was a good start. It was more of an exercise. But I did see the value in if you're coming to it and you want to know what a general privacy policy might look like, it's a good skeleton, so you can start improving it and then make really crafting it to make it your own. 1.1s I mean, there's a lot of other use cases for AI in the legal profession. 1.8s It's tricky, though, because a lot of those use cases are really dependent on how good the AI is, how much you trust it. Like, I think when I was playing around with ChatGPT, I started asking it some legal questions, and even there's a disclaimer on it that basically said all the information here is relevant as of 2021. So if the law changes or there's new developments after that, it's not going to be picked up by the AI. So if you're not aware of that, you might end up getting the wrong answers. Um, you know, there were a lot of different I was researching robo calling rules, and the FCC's come out with a lot of recent robocall rules that just weren't picked up with the AI. Now, if you didn't know anything about robo calling, you wouldn't know that. So again, there are some use cases here, but at the same time, you really have to be mindful of what's under the hood with AI. And for that reason, again, I don't think there's going to be like a wholesale replacement of lawyers or attorneys as much as we may wish. 

U2

So you don't I don't know. I don't think we wish that. I think you're safe for at least another 20 years, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Until ChatGPT 20. Yeah. And 

U1

then, then then I can just go sit on a beach and have a chat. 

U2

Negotiate for. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's actually my love that breakdown. No, I love that breakdown. Um, you know, as we, as we wrap up here with kind of the last question, which is really coming full circle, um, you know, where we talked initially about the theme of this, this conversation is how can legal be your company's competitive advantage? And, um, I think that that takes the conversation to the next level, which is you talked a lot in, you know, last period of this conversation about what you do, where you help, you know, ideas, tips and all of these things. But those are still very day to day, right? Just kind of things. When you really talk to a CEO, right, if you're talking to a board, right, is how can. You know legal. Become a competitive. Competitive advantage to the business. You think? 

U1

I mean, I think that, you know, a good counsel is going to do two things for the company. One is 1.7s kind of identify risk. So this goes through everywhere in the company. But where is the company really really at risk. Because there's going to be lots of different things within a company. You know, whether it be H.R., whether it be, you know, regulatory issues, whether it be commercial contract issues, but really, really identifying where the key areas in the company based on its business operations, where those risks exist. 1.1s And then once you identify those risks, you can, you know, identify solutions to those risks. Um, and then also, you know, this gets a lot into the commercial side of things, kind of identifying where they're where they're less risks. And then then it's just the balancing of what risks the company wants to undertake and then how it wants to, you know, use that as a competitive advantage. 2.1s

U2

Yeah, that is easier said than done. But think just like anything, you know, I think, um. Yeah. Like the in 2023 and beyond, whether it's in procurement, finance, marketing you got to do something different legal. You got to do something different. You got to think outside of the box. I think it's just thinking of more ways you can help the business, because ultimately, if you help the business, you're going to help yourself. Yeah. You know, in, in your careers and everything, but but no great conversations, man. And the last question we always ask our guests is, you know, you've seen a lot. You've done a lot. If you have to give one personal and or business advice that you're passionate about, what do you think that be? 

U1

Oh, I mean, that's both easy and hard at the same time. But I think I think be nice to everybody 

U2

okay. 

U1

Is my is my is what I've learned over 

U2

the course of career. 

U1

Not not 

U2

necessarily to make 

U1

people like you because people are going to like you or they're not. 1.3s That's kind of out of your control in some sense. I mean, you don't want to. Obviously, you don't want to walk around being a jerk to everybody, but it's more 1.1s of a sense that everybody is in. Everybody's at work for a reason. And, you know, our jobs really is just to make it as pleasurable and as nice to everybody in the working environment as possible. We all have our own stuff going on. 1.3s And, you know, I think it's just be supportive of your team members, be supportive of everybody in the organization because it does make it makes a big difference. Like, you know, I don't want to get too personal here, Victor, but obviously from the company we worked at, you know, a lot of the people still talk in, a lot of people still get together, and a lot of people are very supportive of the company that we have. We or we had. And I give a lot of credit to the the management there. And a lot of the people we worked with. 1.4s I certainly learned a lot, especially coming from, you know, Beagle being a lawyer and, and working billable hours. And then, you know, you get to an environment where everybody's really nice and it makes a huge difference. It really does to your to to your well-being, to everybody else's well-being. Um, so I that's my wish. And I think that's my advice to everybody is just be a nice person. 

U2

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like the company culture. I totally agree with you. It's hard to build, but but when you have good company culture, it kind of permeates through everything. So. So no, I really appreciate you being on the show with us. It's been great. You know, we always can talk for hours and hours, but I really appreciate 

U1

you know, I thank you, Victor. I really you are. Yeah. You know, I really thank you for this opportunity and I really appreciate it. And if anybody has any questions for me or disagrees with anything that I've said on the podcast, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can reach out to me directly. I'm happy to 1.4s talk more about fun, AI driven, you know, legal advice or whatever. But no, I thank you for this opportunity. 1s

U2

Thank you. Chris. Cool. 1s